Gertrudis Van de Vijver (GVdV): Heinz von Foerster, you are the central figure in the history of second order cybernetics — creating in 1958 the Biological Computer Laboratory, that is generally considered as the meeting place of second order cyberneticians — so I would like to start with some questions related to this history. One of the things that I always found striking in second order cybernetics is the risky, adventurous character of its ideas. Did you perceive these ideas in a similar way when you created the Biological Computer Laboratory ? Did you find it then risky, adventurous with regard to first order cybernetics and with regard to science in general ?
Heinz von Foerster (HvF): Well, I am rarely self-reflecting, living very much at the moment what is going on outside of me. So I am not really reflecting upon what I do now, what happens now, etc. I am much more active, involved all the time. Anyway, the second order notion is not only appreciable to the cybernetic idea but it is a very wide, I would say even semantic or epistemological perspective that pops up in various disciplines. There are many more second order notions besides those in cybernetics: any concept that is applicable to itself is a second order notion. That is why 'second order' poses a problem of understanding. It is also popping up at this conference now. What the organizers propose, is to cut through the fractionisation and the collapse of the various fields of knowledge into subfields and sub-subfields. They propose going from a disciplinary perspective, where you understand your own field, to an interdisciplinary perspective, where you not only have to understand your own field but also your colleague's field, then to transdisciplinary thinking. In the latter case, not understanding X-Y-Z is at stake; X-Y-Z become now understanding. So what you have in transdisciplinary research is understanding of understanding.
Return to the content of this issue
Return to the Cybernetics and Human Knowing Homepage